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Archive 1 Archive 2

Mediation - moving onwards

Hi. It seems to me you have two choices here. Either you a) find a way to work together to finesse the draft worked on in mediation, or you can b) decide to assess consensus on the draft the mediation parties agreed on.

If b) is unsuccessful, you can always go back to a).

In my opinion, a) is better, but the editors here have essentially been unsuccessful in doing method a) for months now. --Dweller (talk) 17:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but this mediation only involved the individuals concerned, and since they are clearly not in agreement anyway, it is of little relevance when deciding the issue - which needs to be decided here, by all who wish to take part, in accordance with policy. The 'draft' has no more status than any other suggestion. I'd like to propose that we adopt the footnote first suggested back in December of last year: "Sources are divided as to whether her birth name is Demetria[4 representative footnotes] or Demi[Stuart's 4 representative footnotes]. Moore says the latter.[2 tweets plus Bang Showbiz]." This is all that is needed, it states the facts regarding sources, and implies nothing. (and neither does it bring in irrelevances about Twitter). AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't think that you've written anything there that disagrees with what I've said. You're merely proposing an alternative to consider in option b) --Dweller (talk) 17:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Ok, how about I make this a formal proposal, with a RfC - and make it clear that I am proposing this exact wording, rather than starting yet another round of circular debate? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


Proposals

I'm going to list the three raised proposals for consideration to try and gauge the feeling of the community as to the way forward. If I've missed any significant views then feel free to add them as alternative proposals onto the end. To start off I'm only going to mark my preferred choice but it might be helpful to rate each proposal if supporting more than one and also to comment if you have relevant considerations about an option you are supporting. (edit conflict) I know this was in conflict with Andy's last edit and I would support making this a formal RFC. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 18:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Seems a good idea. Good luck to you all - I hope a resolution is close. --Dweller (talk) 18:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposal #1

per the RFC adopt a footnote worded similar to: "Sources are divided as to whether her birth name is Demetria[4 representative footnotes] or Demi[Stuart's 4 representative footnotes]. Moore says the latter.[2 tweets plus Bang Showbiz]."

Editors who support this proposal
  1. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
  2. Agree, minus the Bang Showbiz cite, which appears to be at least partly plagiarizing another source or at best is a copy-paste of unsourced material.--Tenebrae (talk) 19:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
  3. Support this as a footnote, leaving it out of the main article. Nymf hideliho! 19:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
  4. Support. Per the above. I also don't mind the Bang citation. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 19:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
  5. Second choice, but sufficient. GRuban (talk) 20:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Editors who don't
Hide debate about reliability of Bangshowbiz quote - resolved at WP:RSN
Admin closed with statement

It [BangShowbiz quote] is obviously reliable for the very limited self-identification; but, attribute it and quote it - by Fifelfoo

The following is a closed debate. Please do not modify it.
Note

A note about the quote from the gossip website Bang Showbiz: Aside from being an anonymous item that is possibly plagiarized, it also opens up another can of worms, since we also have a quote from her in which she claims it was her father who named her from a magazine ad ("Demi Moore" [press notes biography]. No Small Affair. Columbia Pictures. 1984), and she's also told Vanity Fair, "I don't know if it was the name of a hair product or a makeup." (Collins, Nancy. [August 1991] "Demi's Big Moment." Vanity Fair) --Tenebrae (talk) 19:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Again without seeing the relevant copy of Hello it's only an assumption that it is plagiarized - Some of the other quotes in the Blog you used to make the Hello claim reappear in other Blogs attributed to the National Enquirer and in at least one generally RS to BangShowbiz it's self- the "Interview" was widely disseminated and that's what BangShowbiz (as a press agency) do - sell their own interviews (or quotes made in public forums) to multiple magazines - I can't access National Enquirer from the UK and a web proxy is infuriatingly slow - so I can't see what they say about the interview (or the sections of it that they bought) . As I said above it's not really a can of worms that someone's knowledge of something will change with time as they discover more of the facts - We don't call scientific research a can of worms because earlier findings have been replaced by more accurate ones - we take the latest to be the most accurate and only if it's relevant do we discuss how and why they have changed. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 08:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Tenebrae, what part of "we don't give a rat's arse about your unsourced speculation" do you find so hard to understand? You clearly have some sort of emotional involvement in 'proving' that Ms Moore is dishonest (I'll not speculate why), but it is of no relevance to the topic under discussion, which is how we should properly reflect what the sources we have tell us. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
First, there's no need to be rude. I'm sure there was another way of saying "we don't give a rat's arse" that would have said the same thing without being unnecessarily vulgar and insulting about it.
Secondly, the only unsourced speculation is your unfounded claim that I have "emotional involvement in 'proving' that Ms Moore is dishonest". I do not. I think from everything I've said about journalistic standards, and some of the lack thereof I've seen here, that I am approaching this as any professional would. I care about this encyclopedia, and I would not want this article or any article to make encyclopedic claims based on sourcing that wouldn't pass muster at any responsible newspaper or magazine. Believe me or don't, but that's the truth.
The BANG Showbiz "interview" with Demi Moore [1] is anonymous and its authenticity is questionable. A portion of this Dec. 2010 item ("I obsess and look in ... is falling and I can't get up'") appears to be taken without attribution [2] from an April 2010 Hello interview, which is not online. That appears to be plagiarism. We already have her direct comments in two tweets; citing a gossip site that apparently plagiarizes from a non-RS tabloid gossip magazine is in no way acceptable sourcing — certainly not compared with The New York Times, the Encyclopedia Britannica, etc. I don't mean to prolong things, but if you're adamant about including this questionable and apparently plagiarizing, clearly non-RS gossip site and consider that responsible sourcing, then let's take it to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard and see what other, disinterested editors have to say about it. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
On the 22nd of April the quote “I don’t dye my hair, but I do have a few grey hairs that I pluck out.” was sourced to ContactMusic [3] on the 23rd to National Enquirer [4] - If your celebitchy blog on the 26th was talking about the current issue (which it appears to be) then that was not released until the 25th [5] - which press agency distributed it originally? Well the earliest seems to be BangShowbiz [6] particularly since the next earliest contactmusic literally reprints Bangshowbiz press release word for word. Take it to RSN if you want but it looks highly likely that the interview and the various press releases dripped out of it came from a single press agency in this case BangShowbiz. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 20:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
I do respect all the work and effort you've put in. I do have to say that the particular quote I mentioned ("I obsess and look in ... is falling and I can't get up'") that appears in the April 2010 Hello does not appear in the April 2010 BANG story. It appears, without attribution, in the December 2010 BANG story. So my point remains: BANG printed something in December without attribution that appeared in Hello in April. On top of that questionable practice, passing off an old quote as something new is also not ethical journalism. That speaks to the credibility of BANG Showbiz. Who knows where its other quotes come from? There is no way to know where its "Demi...makeup" quote comes from, how old it is, if the original source is credible, or whether BANG Showbiz made up a quote by rephrasing something she said somewhere else. The fact that marginally credible or disreputable magazines or non-journalistic websites would publish BANG Showbiz material doesn't in any way give it credibility.
And besides: We have two tweets directly from Moore, from her verified Twitter page. How can a possible quote from a questionable site possibly add any value to that? We have Moore herself, straight from the horse's mouth ... twice! It doesn't get more straightforward than that!  :) --Tenebrae (talk) 00:21, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposal #2

per the Mediation adopt a footnote worded similar to: "References say Moore's name at her birth was Demetria Gene Guynes. (c.f. Evans, Cleveland (August 25, 2009)."A Semi 'Demi' Boom Ahead?". Omaha World Herald.) Moore wrote on Twitter, "Demi is the name I was born with!" in May 2009, and "Demetria is a beautiful name. [M]y full name though is actually just Demi!" in June 2009."

Editors who support this proposal
  1. Per Andy's point further up - I would be willing to find consensus for a rewording away from an implication that All or Most sources agreed with Cleveland Evans. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 18:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
  2. Agree with the wording as written, which does not say or imply "all" or "most," or if that's unacceptable, "There are references that say Moore's name at...." I can't imagine being more neutrally factually than that. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
  3. First choice. GRuban (talk) 20:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
  4. Don't see how this is suggesting she is lying as we are using it as justification for Demi in the body. AIRcorn (talk) 23:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Editors who don't
  1. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC) To clarify - this is thoroughly misleading, as (a) not all 'references' give 'Demetria' as Ms Moore's name, and (b) We have a non-Twitter source for Moore stating her name too. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:22, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
  2. Oppose, as we have non-Twitter sources for Demi as well. It's worded in a way that might imply that Moore is fabricating her real name. Nymf hideliho! 19:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. Nymf makes a good point. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 19:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposal #3

per the arguments made during the RFC, adopt no footnote and cite Demi in the lead.

Editors who support this proposal


Editors who don't
  1. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
  2. Tenebrae (talk) 19:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
  3. GRuban (talk) 20:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Lets finish this

It has been a week and it is clear that Proposal one above has consensus. Lets finalise it and end this whole mess.

"Sources are divided as to whether her birth name is Demetria[4 representative footnotes] or Demi[Stuart's 4 representative footnotes]. Moore says the latter.[2 tweets plus Bang Showbiz]."

Can we have the four representative footnotes for Demetria and Demi. How about Tenebrae chooses four for Demetria and Stuart can list his for Demi. AIRcorn (talk) 01:11, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Demetria footnotes

I would suggest The New York Times, People, Variety and the Encyclopedia Britannica. If four of each is too much, I'm sure we could do three each if editors want. --Tenebrae (talk) 05:07, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Demi Footnotes

I would suggest The New York Times (biographical Service), Chicago Tribune, Larry Getlen's Demi: the Naked Truth, Leonard Maltin's Movie Encyclopedia - although I'm willing to compromise on alternatives if editors want. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 08:31, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Amenable to all. Just for clarity, what specific page/article of the NYT Bio Service? I'm presuming this page. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:07, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Cited Version

Footnote

Sources are divided as to whether her birth name is Demetria[1][2][3][4] or Demi.[5][6][7][8] Moore says the latter.[9][10][11]

References
  1. ^ Heffernan, Virginia (February 27, 2004). "Critic's Notebook; Unabashed Stars Break the Shackles of the Name Game". The New York Times. Archived from the original on February 29, 2012. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  2. ^ Cerio, Gregory (June 24, 1996). "Striptease's Demi Moore Knows What It Took to Get to the Top. Her Scarlet Letter Is 'A' for Ambition". People. Eye of the Tiger. Vol. 45, no. 25. Archived from the original on March 30,2011. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |archivedate= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  3. ^ Dare, Michael (March 9, 1995). "ShoWest Honors Demi Moore: Beauty's Got Brains and Talent". Daily Variety via Michael Dare's official site. Archived from the original on March 24, 2010. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  4. ^ Encyclopaedia Britannica Editors; King, Thad, ed. (2009). 2009 Britanncia Almanac. Encyclopaedia Britannica. p. 60. ISBN 978-1-59339-228-4. {{cite book}}: |author= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  5. ^ "Demi Moore". The New York Times Biographical Service. 22. The New York Times and Arno Press: 476. 1991. ISSN 0161-2433. {{cite journal}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  6. ^ Hayward, Jeff (January 17, 1993). "Taking Chances: Demi Moore Knows All about Risk and Controversy - and Seeks It". Chicago Tribune. Archived from the original on February 29, 2012. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  7. ^ Getlen, Larry (2003). Demi: The Naked Truth. AMI Books. p. 7. ISBN 978-1-932270-24-2.
  8. ^ Maltin, Leonard; Green, Spencer; Sader, Luke (1994). Leonard Maltin's Movie Encyclopedia. E. P. Dutton. p. 624. ISBN 978-0-525-93635-0.
  9. ^ Moore, Demi (May 12, 2009). "Demi is the name I was born with!". @mrskutcher at Twitter.com.
  10. ^ Moore, Demi (April 27, 2011). "No it is just Demi Gene it was never Demitria!". @mrskutcher at Twitter.com.
  11. ^ "Demi Moore 'obsesses' over appearance". BangShowbiz.com. December 31, 2010.
  • Is this right? I don't have the page numbers for the books though. AIRcorn (talk) 11:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
    • More or less right - I was using the 1994 edition of Maltin where Green and Saders names are the other way round but I don't have an ISBN for it - also the page number I've added corresponds to that edition and may not be correct for 95. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 11:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
      • Does the Manual of Style agree with including "Inc Encyclopaedia Britannica" as the author of Britannica? It looks a little out of place as though it would sit better omitting the author parameter. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 19:04, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
I tweaked the formats of the refs a bit; hope I didn't inadvertently get rid of Stuart.Jamieson's changes I was edit conflicting with. The one substantive change was switching the April 2011 Tweet for the June 2009 one; it seemed more unambiguous in its meaning. Fat&Happy (talk) 19:29, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The Leonard Maltin link here doesn't go to any page showing "Demi Guynes". A search for "Guynes" within the book doesn't appear to turn up anything pertinent here, nor do searches on "Demi" or "Moore" turn up pertinent hits. "Demi Moore" only turns up snippets here with no mention of early life. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:39, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The cited page reads "MOORE, DEMI. Actress, (b Nov. 11. 1 962 Roswell NM., as Demi Guynes.) Beautiful, husky-voiced brunette.... " but not all quotes show up in snippet view which is why I never link to the exact page but only to the book its self. For instance you've just altered the link to Britanica, but Britanica Almanac 2009 doesn't show snippet view for me (don't know if it's a UK thing) which is again a reason that I only ever link to the book and those interested can search within the book for the term if it's available to them. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 19:46, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Who the hell is Michael Dare? And now that I think of it, we're linking to copyright violation page. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:57, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Errm, you should know since he's the journalist for Variety that wrote the article you're citing - Dare, Michael (March 9, 1995). "ShoWest Honors Demi Moore: Beauty's Got Brains and Talent". Variety. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 20:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Excuse me for being in the middle of work and popping in when I can to contribute, and overlooking a name in small type. -- Tenebrae (talk) 21:28, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Looking good. Should we impliment it? AIRcorn (talk) 21:48, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm all for it, and I'm be happy to have you do the honors. Don't forget to remove "born Demi Gene Guynes" from the infobox as well as the lead to keep it neutral. Also, I thought we were going to do a single group-note footnote in the article, so that this footnote's text and its string of links would under "Notes" rather than in the article body. I'm good either way, but I my impression was we wanted little of this text in the article.
Let me go ahead and add an archive link for the People article first. Just take me a minute. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:02, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Done--Tenebrae (talk) 01:55, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
I was under the impression that we were adding the footnote next to "born Demi Gene Guynes". Something like this. AIRcorn (talk) 02:09, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
The whole point of this for months is that reliable sources don't agree on her birth name. Giving either "Demi Guynes" or "Demetria Guynes" is POV. That's the very core of this entire debate. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:13, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
This then. AIRcorn (talk) 02:28, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

No. This isn't what was proposed at all - this was supposed to go in a footnote. There is no agreement whatsoever to anything else. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:22, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

You will have to explain what you mean by "in a footnote". Is this not in a footnote? AIRcorn (talk) 03:55, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes, that is what I thought we'd all agreed on - but you seem to have reverted it. Why? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:04, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
I just wanted to make sure it was correct and figured the best way was to temporarily put it in the article so everyone could see how it would look and make sure it was the agreed upon version. AIRcorn (talk) 04:48, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
I was just going by the following exchange.
  • The groupnote-footnote should go in the lead, however, next to first mention of her name. That's the logical place for any birth-name-related footnote. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
  • That suggestion works well. I'd have no objections. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
  • I agree. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 21:13, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
--Tenebrae (talk) 04:58, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

 Done AIRcorn (talk) 23:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

And there was much rejoicing! --GRuban (talk) 23:59, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Unbelievable. I just saw this. I had lost all hope and I thought I would check what happened. You can imagine my surprise. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 01:13, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Emilio Estevez & Brat Pack

Why is there no mention in this article of her significant relationship with Emilio Estevez? Demi was a big part of his life and the Brat Pack scene, yet none of that is included in this article of her life. Needs to be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.239.59.228 (talk) 07:40, 24 March 2009‎ (UTC)

Wording of Lead

On the BLP noticeboard, Jimbo Wales raises issues with the lead in it's current form: As a means to address those issues, I'd like to propose the following:

Demi Guynes Kutcher (/dəˈmiː/ də-MEE; born November 11, 1962 as Demi Gene Guynes[1])[nb 1] known professionally as Demi Moore, is an American actress.

Notes

  1. ^ Many sources give her birth name as Demetria or Demitria,[2][3][4][5] however Moore's twitter account has corrected this usage on multiple occasions.[6]
  1. ^ The New York Times Biographical Service. New York Times & Arno Press. 1991. p. 476. Retrieved 15 December 2011. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |Volume= ignored (|volume= suggested) (help)
  2. ^ "After 11 Years, Marriage of Stars Demi Moore and Bruce Willis Ends". St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Reuters. p. A2. {{cite news}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
  3. ^ Rees, Jasper (26 June 1998). "End of the Bruce and Demi show". The Independent. UK. Retrieved 1 December 2011.
  4. ^ Devine, Cate (Jun 28, 2003). "Paying a price for that body beautiful". The Herald. Glasgow. p. 13. {{cite news}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
  5. ^ Mock, Janet. "Celebrity Central: Demi Moore". People.com. Retrieved 1 December 2011. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  6. ^ Moore, Demi (May 11, 2009), "Demi is the name I was born with!", @mrskutcher Twitter

Or something similar; maintaining a footnote about the name differences between sources but not debating it in the lead. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 13:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Vanity Fair 1991 article

Hi, Symbols, and may I reiterate that I enjoy seeing the good, solid work you're doing. Here's the exact passage from Nancy Collins' major feature in Vanity Fair, the issue with the famous nude pregnant cover:

Moore's mother exercised one of her own options even before her daughter was born She left Demi's biological father, hooking up with Dan Guynes. Somewhat reluctantly, Demi explains her genealogy. "My dad is Dan Guynes. He raised me. There is a man who would be considered my biological father who I don't really have a relationship with.

Per my notes paraphrasing the rest: "Moore learned of him at age 13 when she found her parents' marriage certificate, dated February 1963."

So the Vanity Fair article doesn't say she married Dan Guynes right away, but "hooked up" with him. It's not unusual for couples not to marry until after a child is born. Either way, we can't say that Vanity Fair says something it doesn't say, and any deductions on our part would be original research. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

  • Much as I hate to disagree with Tenebrae [7] 5th hit down extracts the appropriate text that is missing from the snippet:

    day she found her parents' marriage certificate. "I saw my parents were married in February 1963. I was bom in '62.

    Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 18:28, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
  • O, the weirdnesses of the GBooks search process. In any event, I really don't see why the date of the certificate really contributes anything useful to the article, and as written appears to suggest that Moore's biological father was ID'd on it, which doesn't appear to be the case. Why not substitute "Moore learned of her biological father at age 13, after discovering that her mother had not married Guynes until after she was born", which is a clearer summary of the events? Exactly how she learned isn't so important. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 18:44, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Google Books can be daunting, that's true. Not sure it's working out the way Google had envisioned.
In any case, I do thank Stuart, with whom I have an interesting history, to say the least, for finding the exact quote, which matches my notes. With all respect to Hullaballoo, who has been doing excellent work trimming tabloid-y stuff and keeping the article adhering to WP:TONE, I would have to say that any responsible biographer — let's say I'm Robert Caro writing about LBJ — would perforce include such significant biographical details as when a subject's parents were married, especially if it has any bearing on the date of a subject's birth. That's pertinent biographical data. And Moore herself certainly seems OK with it, judging from her quote. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:57, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
That said, I, at least, certainly would be OK if Hullaballoo were to find a more flowing way to state all this, since it is rather clunky as I have it. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:01, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Can't argue with Demi's own words. But if that is true, then was she really born with the last name Guynes? That's what the first sentence on this wiki page says. Why would she be born with her mom's boyfriend's last name, when 3 months after her birth, her mom married her real dad? -Symbols100 (talk) 20:11, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
I don't have access to the magazine in question, but I believe the marriage referred to is between her mother and Dan Guynes, not her biological father. Nymf hideliho! 20:25, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
as Nymf says, When she says her "parents" she means Virginia and Danny Guynes - In the previous couple of sentences (also quoted by Tenebrae in the article) she distances herself from Harmon saying he "would be considered my biological father" - so she didn't consider him a "parent" or "father" or "dad" but appreciated that society might. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 20:27, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
On top of which, one can name a child anything ones want -- you don't have to use the father's last name. Or, you can put the last name of your boyfriend/domestic partner as the child's last name. It's all too wide to make any conclusions. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:35, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Demi's occupation as a singer

(edit conflict) Both Paltrow, and Kidman have No1 singles to their names that's a lot more than singing in "a film or two."Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 20:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

::I realize that now, which is why I erased this post. -Symbols100 (talk) 20:50, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Decorative image

The Huffington Post 2009 image and the infobox's Time 100 2010 image are virtually identical and offer no encyclopedic distinction. Two of essentially the same image means one of them is purely decorative and should be removed, especially given the number of images in this article already. As the WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE guideline notes, "Adding multiple images with very similar content is less useful. For example, three formal portraits of a general wearing his military uniform may be excessive; substituting two of the portraits with a map of a battle and a picture of its aftermath may provide more information to readers. You should always be watchful not to overwhelm an article with images by adding more just because you can." Comments? --Tenebrae (talk) 19:20, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Good point. I would exchange it with the "Demi Moore in 1990" image that is by the "personal life" section right now. Nymf hideliho! 19:27, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
Reasonable suggestion, though the position does help to break that section up. I would probably get one of her yearbook photos under fair use in the Early Life section and move the 89 Oscars one down to where the Huffington one is. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 19:50, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Pre-Moore name

I don't see where it says what name was on her birth certificate, or what her name was before she married Mr. Moore. 98.82.6.72 (talk) 20:37, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear and is in the article now that her family birth name was Guynes - Youreallycan 20:49, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Well, I think one of two things is happening here. Either a) I am simply overlooking "pretty clear" information in the article, or b) you are drawing unwarranted conclusions. Here's what I'm reading:

Moore was born in Roswell, New Mexico. As a child, she had a difficult and unstable home life. Her parents split up before she was born, with Virginia Guynes leaving Demi's biological father, Charles Harmon, Sr., and marrying Dan Guynes, a newspaper advertising salesman who frequently changed jobs; as a result, the family moved a great many times.

  • I don't see it saying what her name was at birth.
  • I don't see it saying when her mother married Mr. Guynes.
Perhaps you are assuming that Virginia married Mr. Guynes before Demi was born? It's certainly possible, but the wording (to me) appears ambiguous. The way I read this, Virginia and Dan could've been married when Demi was two or three--there's nothing in here that clearly precludes that possibility. Now if it was worded like this:

Moore was born in Roswell, New Mexico. As a child, she had a difficult and unstable home life. Before she was born, her parents split up and her mother, Virginia Guynes, married Dan Guynes, a newspaper advertising salesman.

that would be a bit clearer. If you have factual knowledge that her Mom married Guynes before she was born, then you might want to consider a rewrite. You might want to also consider, in the future, that if one editor expresses a concern about some missing information, that the reply, "the information is in there", is not a very helpful response. After all, my post indicates that I had read the article. All your post did was say that I was wrong, i.e., that my concern had no merit. You may be right. But try to see it from the other editor's perspective. If the information's in there, point out where. 98.82.6.72 (talk) 03:04, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure our fellow editor simply intended to be straightforward and not brusque. The footnoted references do say Guynes — virtually every biographical article, despite disagreement over her first name, gives Guynes as her birth name. See references 1 and 2 (The New York Times and People magazine), for example. --Tenebrae (talk) 04:28, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Real name

Here's yet another news source that reports her real name as Demetria.

http://ca.omg.yahoo.com/video/omg-25922389/the-real-names-of-hollywood-stars-revealed-29953128.html

But we're not allowed to say that because of a Twitter feed. Wikipedia is such an absurd, laughable website. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 20:32, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Er, no. You'd be an absurd, laughable contributor if you actually think we'd take that bit of gossipy fluff as a source. This has been discussed at length, and the sources we have (not just Ms Moore's Twitter postings BTW) have been accepted as valid. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:50, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
LOL sure. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 20:56, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Troll? Sure... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:58, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Idiot? Sure... - Burpelson AFB ✈ 21:00, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Demetria Guynes

Attempted to add Demetria Guynes as Birth Name cite web|title=The Real Names of Hollywood Stars Revealed|url=http://screen.yahoo.com/the-real-names-of-hollywood-stars-revealed-29953129.html%7Caccessdate=12 July 2012</ref> but it was removed with the note I need to seek consensus on this. I thought citing a major news source was enough, but I guess not. Fanra (talk) 22:00, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Apart from the fact that the citation you provided is not a reliable source please see Talk:Demi_Moore/Archive_2 for more information about previous discussions on the subject. In addition there were lengthy discussions at WP:BLPN about the same issue. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 22:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Note. Due to the level of undiscussed edits by IPs against the established consensus, the article has been semi-protected so only registered contributors may edit. Can I suggest that if the issue is to be raised again here, everyone wishing to do so first reads the long and tedious debate over the issue before doing so - and ensures that they are familiar with the relevant sections of Wikipedia policy. We aren't going to go through the whole debate again just because of a Yahoo video which mentions Ms Moore's name in passing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:53, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree. They also should check the debate at BLPN. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 00:56, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 July 2012

Please add the following under her picture, above her birth date:

Born "Demetria Guynes"

source: http://screen.yahoo.com/the-real-names-of-hollywood-stars-revealed-29953129.html

It is already in the redirect from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetria_Guynes

thank you

AyriWynn (talk) 11:28, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Not done: PLease see discussion on section just above this one. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 13:08, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Birth name

I see that this has been discussed time and time again, but I was just wondering why the birth name is not included in the article. A source already present in the article shows her saying she was born as Demi Gene Guynes. Why is this not included? Zac  13:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

It is - see footnote 1. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:07, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm clearly referring to as having it in the infobox and the lead section. There's no mention of "Gene" anywhere in the article. Zac  21:11, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Oh, I see. Good question. I suspect that in all the kerfuffle over whether her first name was in fact 'Demetria', we lost track of the fact that her second name was Gene, according to all the sources that gave one. As to why we don't definitively give her full name in the infobox, since there have been conflicting sources, it is better covered in the footnote - infoboxes should only be used for clear and non-controversial factual statements. We've arrived at a compromise, and barring any new sources, are unlikely to want to go over the whole issue again. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
I understand that, but as you said, Gene somehow got lost in translation. Surely that is quite an important bit of information. And since she herself states her birth name as being Demi Gene Guynes, why must the other sources even be used? A similar type of thing happened with Hilary Duff a few years ago, everybody reporting her middle name to be Ann, but she later cleared it up that her middle name was actually Erhard. Zac  22:31, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Certainly we should add the 'Gene' somewhere. I'd seriously recommend not restarting the debate about which first name is right though, unless you have further evidence. It took a ridiculously long time to reach the compromise we did. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Would further evidence really make any difference? The primary sources: Demi, Her Classmates, Two of her yearbooks, all point to one answer whilst some secondary sources point to another; is there any evidence that can be presented that would give either answer more credibility short of her own birth certificate (unlikely because of New Mexico's restriction on records) or a retraction from one or more of the secondary sources (unlikely for a story this old)? I will say however that I've looked for the Frazier High yearbook which two editors have claimed Demetria is printed in (which must be 1974) - I can't find that one, but will say that all years subsequent and previous at Frazier use only a first initial for freshman students there is never a first name given. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 15:15, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Motherrr.com article unusable

The Motherrr.com citation for Virginia Guynes setting a home on fire, etc. is cited to Motherrr.com, which reprints an article called "Demi Moore and Her Mother - A Difficult Relationship at Best" at monstersandcritics.com. However, when you go to monstersandcritics.com, that article (actually a Moore biography) says at the bottom: "This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. It uses material from the Wikipedia article about Demi Moore." So the source being used to cite this claim is this Wikipedia article itself! That's circular citing, and we can't do that. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:20, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 16:30, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
USA today covered it October 6th 1994, along with many other papers of the time.Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 21:01, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
I can't find the USA today source, but I did find a FOX News article that says Virginia Guynes was arrested for several crimes including drunk driving and arson, so I've put in the information back in the article with that wording and FOX News as the citation. Shipofcool (talk) 01:03, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Her mom's last name

I might be missing something here, but it sounds as if this is saying Demi's mother, Virginia, was named Virginia Guynes before marrying Dan Guynes.

Moore's parents separated before she was born, with her biological father, Air Force man Charles Harmon, Sr.[18] leaving her mother, Virginia Guynes (née King), after a two-month marriage.[19] When Moore was three months old, her mother married Dan Guynes,

I don't believe the phrase "Virginia Guynes (née King)" is accurate. She would have been Virginia Harmon before the divorce, and not Virginia Guynes until after marrying Dan Guynes. I think this would accurately read "...leaving her mother, Virginia (née King), after...." --Tenebrae (talk) 17:07, 29 September 20

What do the sources say, I'm on the mobile so it's not easy to check them? I seem to recall that they do imply that like Demi's claimed birth surname Guynes was used by King before marriage whether true or not. That said I'm happy with your suggested omission in the interim. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 21:10, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
It's the Vanity Fair 1991 article, which says: "Moore's mother exercised one of her own options even before her daughter was born. She left Demi's biological father, hooking up with Dan Guynes." So it looks like, happily, we're in agreement that the existing phrasing is incorrect or at best extremely vague. Excising. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:23, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Net worth

This took some digging. First, I removed the Phoenix New Times cite since that was just a letter-to-the-editor from a nondescript person and not an RS. Then I examined the Learnvest link here, which cited BusinessInsider.com as the source here, which said, "All figures are estimates taken from celebritynetworth.com," so I used that original source as the citation. Whew! --Tenebrae (talk) 17:40, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Demi Moore

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Demi Moore's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "filmref":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 19:36, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:01, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

First name

  • - This People magazine article [8] says: Moore was born Demetria Guynes in Roswell, N.Mex., and grew up as the older child—half brother Morgan is now 28 and a film technician—of Danny Guynes, a newspaper ad salesman, and his wife, Virginia. (Her mother, Moore has said, got the name Demetria from a beauty product she saw in a magazine.) but her whole name is not listed anywhere in the Wiki-page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.124.176.207 (talk) 02:31, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
If you click the link n-1 after her name in the lead it takes you to a footnote where sources like People are listed for Demetria whilst other sources such as Leonard Maltin say that it was only ever Demi. It also sources more recent comments by Moore where she states it was never Demetria. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 07:43, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
And sources like The New York Times and the Encyclopedia Britannica say Demetria. I'm sure no one wants there to be WP:UNDUE here, of course. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:18, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

See most of Archive 1 and Archive 2 above for the discussion. This horse is dead, flogged and buried since long. Nymf hideliho! 08:30, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Amen. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:18, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Oh Dear. I'm afraid I will have to disagree. Prior discussions: I've read the archives, and still don't see why you have chosen to leave out her full birth name. There have been dozens, if not hundreds, of print interviews giving Ms Moore's full name as Demetria Guynes. I assume that most interviewers requested and verified this information before printing it, and if not, there was never a denial or clarification from Ms Moore or her publicist after the articles were published. So her name stands as fact. But it seems that merely on the basis of one "tweet" from a twitter account, her true name was removed. I would also point out that Ms Moore has admittedly given false information in another case - for example, in this very Wikipedia article on her, it quotes Ms Moore's admission that she put "first marriage" on her marriage license form to Bruce Willis, not "second". Usually Wikipedia is the "go-to" source for accurate information, but in this case, the article is flawed. I would suggest you revisit this matter. 68.124.182.177 (talk) 10:18, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
No. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:21, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
As you claim there are hundreds of sources for your claim then wikpedia is hardly the go to source for your claim - current consensus of discussion is that we are going with the subjects statement in the lede and a note later in the article. Youreallycan 10:25, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I suggest we add a FAQ section at the top of the talkpage so we can address predictably repeating questions such as this one more efficiently. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 11:10, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
You took part in that discussion under various similar California AT&T 68.x.x.x IP's the discussion went against your position and restarting it is unlikely to change anything especially since you have nothing new to add to the discussion beyond calling Moore a liar. The archives do show that more than the basis of a single tweet - there were multiple tweets and many sources for Demetria had also stated Demi at other times - it wasn't clear and until it is clear it shouldn't go in. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 11:12, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

High school

She also attended Redondo Union High School circa 1977, it has been reported. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.21.7.121 (talk) 23:23, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

If you tell us where it has been reported, we might be able to include this in the article - we don't however base articles on vague assertions from contributors. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:36, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation of last name

Does it rhyme with core or with lure? Can somebody add that piece of information? --88.70.214.25 (talk) 09:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Core. It's a common surname, see Moore (surname). Jim Michael (talk) 16:17, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Demi? Demetria? Demitria?

It's beyond the realms of probability that someone could have extended Demi to Deme(i)tria if it wasn't true. Jimbo has first hand experience of this. He met Will.i.am who told him that neither his birth certificate nor his driver's licence listed him as "William James Adams, Jr." However, the reality is that

Aged 25, when a passport application resulted in him seeing his full birth certificate for the first time, he found that his real, full name was William James Adams Jr.

87.81.147.76 (talk) 16:43, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Editors reached consensus on this in a months-long discussion that ran from late 2011 to 2012 [9]. It would be advisable to read it before beginning any new discussion. --Tenebrae (talk) 03:41, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
I read all that before I came here. I don't think note 1 is fair to the subject - "Demetria Guynes is our Demi Moore" omits to mention that Moore is her married name. Where does note 6 get its information? Her birth certificate is a restricted document. Notes 5, 7 and 8 relate to books which are not online so they may not give sources either. As for 9, 10 and 11 they may simply mean that she has been called Demi from birth - there's no representation that Demi is the name on her birth certificate. I would go with common sense - if a source says her birth name is Demetria it's probably right - what motive has the informant to lie? I suggest the first paragraph after the lead should begin "Moore was born Demetria Guynes in Roswell, New Mexico" and the footnote should be deleted. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 19:32, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
First, what's common sense to you may not be common sense to others, so that's not really a valid argument — believe me, people with the most extreme political viewpoints say they're just using common sense and that anyone with a differing opinion is not.
Secondly, if you really want to open an RfC and start this all over again from scratch, anyone can do so. Without a formal RfC, we can't really change anything so substantial as this given the clear consensus worked out by numerous editors over several months. Speaking only for myself, unless I had bombshell, irrefutable new information, I would not bother. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:04, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Common sense (and Wikipedia policy) says that if there are contradictory sources on such matters we report both. We do not decide for ourselves what we think is 'correct'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:40, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Lack of necessity for mentioning lawsuits

I think this entire sub-section should be erased. The plaintiffs were obviously not credible, as stated in the body of the writing and in the citations, and both cases were thrown out by the judge many years ago. If anyone really wants to dredge up information about these discredited lawsuits, there are other websites on which you can read about them. But presenting them on Wikipedia with such importance disparages Ms. Moore's reputation. She has been sued several other times in less-publicized lawsuits that are not (and don't need to be) mentioned on here. As a public figure and wealthy individual it's a given that she's been vulnerable to unmerited lawsuits. We don't need to make such a spectacle of this. Iistal (talk) 20:22, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

it seems nobody disagreed with you, so I went to Be Bold :-). Though I only trimmed it and didn't erase it, and I think it should be done this way. Wefa (talk) 00:30, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Last name

There is no evidence that Guynes is or ever was her legal surname; "known professionally as" should be excised from the intro. It should only say Moore because public records[10][11] and a photostat of a legal document[12] establish that Moore is her real and legal surname, not just a stage name. I don't dispute that Guynes is a past name she has used; I dispute the suggestion that it is her name presently. She has not gone by Guynes since 1980 or earlier. I would maybe suggest the following: Demi Moore (née Guynes; born November 11, 1962) is an American actress ....

I also suggest two other minor changes: (1) That mention of her being a high-school dropout and having posed nude for an adult magazine be excised from the lead; (2) That a brief summary of her marriages be restored to that section (don't know why it was removed; in this instance the subject's personal life is prominent enough to merit mention there, e.g. Angelina Jolie or Elizabeth Taylor). Iistal (talk) 01:52, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

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Demi's name

In this 1996 article in People magazine http://people.com/archive/cover-story-eye-of-the-tiger-vol-45-no-25/ they do an in-depth interview with Demi Moore, who talks about many personal things in her life. They quote her as saying her mother named her "Demetria". I understand that there has been some prior discussion of her name, but this looks like conclusive proof. Demi is quite open in this article; she talks of her father's suicide, her marriage with Bruce Willis, her young children. It may be time to revisit the decision not to list her full name in this article. Wikipedia has become a leader in trusted references - Google even posts snippets from Wikipedia routinely as their search results, and it is cited as accurate by many other organizations, so we should strive to be as factual as possible, and have an article that states her true birth name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:776F:F8E0:C46A:4759:29E4:C6A4 (talk) 18:08, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

That 1996 article already is one of about 10 citations in the note about her name. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:35, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Oui

A necessary correction I've tried to make cannot go unreverted because a couple of editors consider it an "uncited claim" [13].

Those infamous photos did NOT come from Oui. She was on the cover only, see eBay description [14]. It's about time someone corrected this.

I'm not sure what publication they were originally printed in, but my last edit includes the photographer's name which should be enough. Leighleey (talk) 01:28, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

I understand you're a very new editor and might not have had a chance to read the Five Pillars of Wikipedia. It's not just that two editors consider your edit an uncited claim — Wikipedia itself does, since you didn't provide a reliable-source citation in a footnote. Wikipedia doesn't allow eBay listings as a citation, since, like with a forum posting, anyone can say anything. You may well be correct about Oui — but we need to find reliable citations to support your claim. That's not too much to ask for an addition to an encyclopedia, right? --Tenebrae (talk) 01:43, 24 January 2017
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, you want a reliable citation to support the claim she wasn't nude in the mentioned issue of Oui? There are 3 citations in the article, and each of them is being misrepresented. The Entertainment Weekly article just says she was on the cover, and the articles in US Weekly and New York Daily News both have Moore herself saying it was just the cover. The reverted version I linked at the top is fine. It includes mention of the Oui cover and the infamous photos, but does not jump to the incorrect conclusion that there was a correlation between the two. Looking at her publicity listings on IMDB [15], it appears Moore was featured in a number of adult magazines very early in her career and was on the cover of Oui twice, the second time being in March 1982. According to a 2000 article [16]: "The raciest of the photos were published in German Playboy in 1983, while the slightly less revealing versions appeared in OUI magazine" — [Obviously referring to the '82 issue she was in, since by all accounts she was only on the cover of the earlier issue]. These pictures became a topic of widespread internet discussion in 2009 when Daniel Tosh discussed them on his Comedy Central show. Apparently it was assumed by many that they came from Oui. Someone wrote so in her Wiki article and no one bothered to fact-check or challenge the statement. With this in mind, would you agree to undo the revert? By the way, here is a source for the photographer's name [17]. Leighleey (talk) 22:26, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
EW says Moore appeared on the cover. I don't know what Spy says, since while a page number is given, the actual article is not online; whoever added the cite should have added the print magazine's quote.
The Daily News, however, has Moore saying that there were photos inside Oui that were shot "for a European fashion magazine", and interviewer Alan Carter wrote, "However, some peekaboo shots [e.g., not nude] did appear inside. And later, nude shots of her turned up in Celebrity Sleuth—photos that she once said 'were for a European fashion magazine'."</ref> In 1990, she told another interviewer, "It was just the cover", but Moore, as indicated more than once in this article, sometimes tells different people different things. In any case, we need to square this with Alan Carter's statement.--Tenebrae (talk) 00:45, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
With all this in mind, I've adjusted some of the references. "Nude" has been removed from the lead, and I've cited the article-body content more specifically. See if that helps. Note that her second appearance in the March 1982 issue was as a celebrity (a star of General Hospital) and not as a nude or "peekaboo" model, so the references above to a pictorial refer to the first instance. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:01, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Note that the World Entertainment News Network item syndicated at IMDb, which you linked to above, is sourcing its claims on an anonymous source. That makes that particular item non-WP:RS and unusable. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:04, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
The edit helps but does not completely eliminate the possibility of factual errors. I don't think the Daily News quote from Moore actually infers that the photos were in Oui—whoever inserted the quote into the Wiki article only framed it in such a way, by placing it in the wrong context. Carter's statement is probably referring to the 1982 Oui issue [18]. The photos in that, from what I gather, were the "peekaboo shots"—which are entirely separate from the graphic photos in question. The revision I made here [19] just states the facts without inferring anything: "Moore also appeared on the cover of the January 1981 issue of the men's magazine Oui. A series of photographs for Christopher Marrin featuring full frontal nudity were eventually published in a German magazine and later in North America." (Close to how the Wiki article read in 2008 before changes were made [20].) That's all the space this topic should have in the article. Moore is an accomplished actress with several hit films to her credit. We don't need more than two sentences devoted to a nude pictorial she did long ago. It's not what she became known for.
There were other changes in the edit where I rearranged words so the sentences are better formed. I'd like to restore that revision. (The only part I could imagine you would take issue with is use of the word "inauspicious" which I put there to differentiate her film debut from the rest of her career, since Choices was just a low-budget independent movie that went the film festival route and didn't have a wide theatrical release. I'm okay with not including this, since it's just one word, as long as the rest of the changes can remain intact.) Leighleey (talk) 03:26, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
You're correct about "inauspicious", since that's personal opinion, which is disallowed. I also agree with you that Carter saying Moore had previously said the photos were "for a European fashion magazine" indicates that Moore did not use that phrase herself then and there in Carter's interview. So I think there's consensus here on removing that brief passage. which I have gone ahead and done, assuming that's OK. However, I disagree about the issue of Oui to which Carter refers, since it is extremely unlikely a soap-opera star would do "peekaboo shots". The only way to clarify would be to find a copy of the article, though it doesn't appear to be online and it would require someone going to a library archive and bringing back the exact wording.
Your mention of photographer Christopher Martin shooting full-frontal nude shots published in a German magazine really can't be used without reliable-source citation. But maybe you have that. Where did that information come from? --Tenebrae (talk) 22:57, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
The eBay description for Jan. '81 Oui says "Demi on cover only". I agree that it can't be clarified which issue Carter was referring to in the Daily News when we don't have the whole article. (There was a typo in the quote before your recent edits, suggesting whoever inserted it first was not proofreading and may very well have taken it out of context.) The Spy article [21] is contradictory by saying that her General Hospital gig was an "Ensuing career upswing" after appearing in Oui in 1982 because she was already on the show by then.
The photographer's name was given here on Wiki in the 2008 revision linked above. It was unsourced so I did a Google search and found one [22]. I still think the remaining coverage is excessive (quotes and all). Leighleey (talk) 23:30, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
I take it that you have no issue with these minor suggested changes so I'll go ahead with the edit. There is one other point we haven't discussed, that of her last name which other editors seem to think is contentious due to the footnote, but the footnote only pertains to her first name. The change I propose is that the opening sentence start with Demi Gene Moore rather than Demi Gene Guynes, professionally known as Demi Moore, because Moore is her real last name, since she took the name of her first husband before she was 18 and apparently never changed it back to Guynes [23]. It's clearly not just a stage name like the opening implies. Leighleey (talk) 02:16, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
@Leighleey: No, I never said that. eBay descriptions are disallowed, we agreed the issue Carter referred to was vague, and the photographer's name really is irrelevant.--Tenebrae (talk) 00:14, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
The issue of the name took literally months of RfC debate resulting in the agreed-upon wording. And having just looked at your edits, for which there was no consensus, I'm also finding subjective POV language. These have all been reverted, and I would ask you to actually achieve consensus. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:17, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
No editors objected to the very minor changes I proposed in the 2 weeks this section (and the talk page as a whole) was inactive, before my previous reply. The changes consisted of small improvements and some of it was restoration of content I brought back from the 2008 revision linked above. There's no way for me to know what you deem wrong with my edits when you revert the whole thing without specifically addressing the parts you take issue with, as I have done. I'd consider it much more helpful if you would make the specific changes manually without reverting all of my work.
On another note, it doesn't make sense to bring up the months-long discussion (from 2010?) when I suggest changing her surname. The consensus and footnote pertained only to her first name, nothing to do with her last name. You seem to think there was a long debate as to whether to refer to her as Guynes or Moore in the opening. From what I've seen, the debate says nothing about that and was to decide whether to refer to her as Demi or Demetria in the opening. It isn't relevant. Leighleey (talk) 00:50, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Again: What you added appeared to be based on an eBay description, which is disallowed, and a POV interpretation of Carter after I thought we agreed his reference was vague. And the photographer's name really is completely irrelevant. As for changing the name in the lead, that's generally a big deal even with subjects whose names have not been the subject of debate.

At his point, perhaps you should call for an RfC, since from what I can tell, you're attempting to make your own interpretive conclusions from insufficiently concrete evidence. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:29, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

You still haven't really pointed out what you find wrong with my editing, other than the photographer's name being irrelevant (which I can agree with). I can't take this discussion to other avenues if I can't explain what we disagree on. Again, it would be helpful if you made manual changes to the content instead of reverting what is, actually, an improvement to the article. Leighleey (talk) 01:42, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm afraid I can't share your opinion that your interpretive conclusions from insufficiently concrete, non=RS evidence improves the article. And you cannot make small and large edits across four paragraphs, eliminating another paragraph, and expect other editors to painstakingly sort through each word. I understand you're new, and I'm trying to be helpful, yet I don't think you fully appreciate the importance of reliable-source citing and for there to be no POV interpretation or the synthesizing of cherrypicked facts in order to draw a conclusion. You also can't use such interpretive POV phrasing as "a high-profile disappointment" and "she famously shaved her head." That is magazine-style writing and not encyclopedic tone. We say "to pursue an acting career" not " to pursue a career in showbusiness [sic] and entered the public eye with." --Tenebrae (talk) 01:54, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
What you're suggesting isn't true. I'm not trying to add the phrases "high-profile disappointment" (which is already there) or "famously shaved her head" (which is also already there, and which I have encyclopedically reworded). The last part of your reply is actually helpful, but it shouldn't have taken this long to get helpful feedback from you. I would welcome admin intervention at this point. Leighleey (talk) 02:04, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
I did see that an earlier editor had added those pieces of non-encyclopedic wording, and I made them more neutral and encyclopedic. I apologize for having attributed them to you, though after seeing "pursue a career in showbusiness [sic] and entered the public eye," I'm sure you can see how that could have been confused.
Anyone is free to ask for admin intervention. There's an admin noticeboard, although I'm not sure what you would say there, given the policies and guidelines you've been violating. Please note that disrupting Wikipedia in order to try to draw admin intervention is inappropriate and generally backfires. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:12, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

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Moore or Guynes ?

  • Both are used to refer to her in the article. Should pick one.
  • Demi Gene Guynes and Demi Moore.
  • Xb2u7Zjzc32 (talk) 23:32, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
Birth name and adult / professional name. Both perfectly acceptable. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:42, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
I mixed up her mother as Guynes. Xb2u7Zjzc32 (talk) 23:45, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Demi Moore. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

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This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

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Filmography

Demi Moore also starred in the movie "Master Ninja I" 1984 starring Lee Van Cleef and Timothy Van Patten. Jody J. 05-12-2020

https://www.moviefone.com/movie/master-ninja/20008356/main/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:252:D6F:AC80:55F4:3071:C4FF:3152 (talk) 14:49, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

The pilot episode of the TV series The Master (featuring Moore) was paired with another episode to make the movie Master Ninja, which may be the same as Master Ninja I. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:58, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

birthname: Demetria Guynes

Source: https://www.n-tv.de/mediathek/bilderserien/unterhaltung/Demi-Moore-ihre-Filme-ihre-Maenner-ihre-Skandale-article23696742.html -- LAZA74 (talk) 09:09, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Guynes death?

The second paragraph suggests Guynes died in 1980 and again in 1998: "Moore's stepfather Dan Guynes divorced and remarried her mother twice. On October 20, 1980, a year after their second divorce from each other, Guynes died by suicide. [...] Moore and Guynes briefly reconciled shortly before Guynes died of a brain tumor on July 2, 1998." I don't know what's right or how to fix this. Mkilly (talk) 02:36, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Controversey section?

Why isn't there a section on the 15 year old boy she molested? 2600:8800:138C:4500:258E:FFFC:5EFE:E90C (talk) 19:46, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Photo looks airbrushed to hell

What's good with Demi's photo? lol SpicyMemes123 (talk) 23:42, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Reverts

Basic, referenced information reverted by FlightTime: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Demi_Moore&diff=prev&oldid=1165728204

This user leaves posts on my talk page calling the edits "unreferenced" and "controversial" which, obviously, is not true. I ask the user to clarify their statements and get no answer. Was-a-singin (talk) 02:09, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Demi_Moore/Archive_2&oldid=1186114858"