Talk:Climate change denial

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Frequently asked questions

To view an explanation to the answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question.

Q1: Why is this article not called "climate change skepticism"?

A1: Because, while climate change deniers claim to exhibit skepticism, their statements and actions indicate otherwise. The evidence for man-made global warming is compelling enough that those who have been presented with this evidence and choose to come to a different conclusion are indeed denying a well-established scientific theory, not being skeptical of it. This is why a consensus has emerged among scientists on the matter. For example, two surveys found that 97% of climate scientists agree that humans are the main cause of global warming.^[1]^[2] According to Peter Christoff, skepticism is, in fact, essential for good science, and "Those scientists who test some uncertain part of the theories and models of climate change with ones of their own are, in a weak sense, "sceptics"." By contrast, since the scientific debate about man-made global warming is over, those who argue that it isn't or that global warming is caused by some natural process, according to Christoff, do not use valid scientific counter-evidence.^[3] Similarly, David Robert Grimes wrote that "The nay-sayers insist loudly that they're "climate sceptics", but this is a calculated misnomer – scientific scepticism is the method of investigating whether a particular hypothesis is supported by the evidence. Climate sceptics, by contrast, persist in ignoring empirical evidence that renders their position untenable."^[4]

Q2: Is this article a POVFORK?

A2: This argument has been raised many times over the years with regard to this page. For example, in 2007 the page was nominated for deletion, and the nominator referred to the article as a "Hopelessly POV fork of global warming controversy." However, this argument was roundly debunked, with User:Count Iblis perhaps providing the best explanation for why: "This article is clearly not a POV fork of the global warming controversy page. In that article the focus is on the arguments put forward by the skeptics (and the rebuttals). In this article the focus is on the "denial industry". We cannot just dump in this article what would be POV in the other article. Of course there may be POV problems with this article, but then POV disputes are not a valid argument for deletion."^[5]

Q3: Does the use of "denial" in this article's title condone the comparison of global warming skeptics/deniers to Holocaust deniers?

A3: This article takes no more of a position with regard to this comparison than the Fox News Channel article does about whether Fox is biased--that is, none whatsoever. In fact, as of 25 March 2014, the article's lead states, "Some commentators have criticized the use of the phrase climate change denial as an attempt to delegitimize 'skeptical' views and portray them as immoral." Thus the "skeptics'" argument against referring to them as "deniers" is indeed included in this article. Moreover, use of the term "denier" far predates the Holocaust.^[6]

Q4: Is there really a scientific consensus on global warming?

A4: The IPCC findings of recent warming as a result of human influence are explicitly recognized as the "consensus" scientific view by the science academies of all the major industrialized countries. No scientific body of national or international standing presently rejects the basic findings of human influence on recent climate. This scientific consensus is supported by 97% of publishing climate scientists, although there are a few who reject this.^[2]

Q5: Why does it matter whether or not there is a "consensus" among scientists? Isn't "consensus" inherently unscientific? Wasn't there a scientific consensus about many other ideas that have since been disproven, such as the earth being the center of the universe until Galileo came along?

A5: The answers to the above questions follow in the same order as the questions:

1. Because a "consensus" indicates that scientists with expertise in the relevant fields are in general agreement about some topic, such that they often refer to it as a "fact" (though technically nothing in science is ever proven with the 100% level of certainty necessary for it to be considered a fact). There is, for example, a consensus that smoking causes cancer, which is widely considered a fact.^[7]
2. No; in fact, it is essential to the progress of science, since scientific discoveries are made based on what the consensus of scientists established before them.^[8]
3. This argument is a form of the association fallacy often called the "Galileo Gambit." The best debunking of this argument may have been provided by Carl Sagan: "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."^[9]

References

^ Anderegg, William R L; Prall, James W.; Harold, Jacob; Schneider, Stephen H. (2010). "Expert credibility in climate change". Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA. 107 (27): 12107–9. Bibcode:2010PNAS..10712107A. doi:10.1073/pnas.1003187107. PMC 2901439. PMID 20566872.
^ ^a ^b Doran, Peter T.; Zimmerman, Maggie Kendall (January 20, 2009). "Examining the Scientific Consensus on Climate Change" (PDF). EOS. 90 (3): 22–23. Bibcode:2009EOSTr..90...22D. doi:10.1029/2009EO030002.
^ Christoff, Peter (9 July 2007). "Climate change is another grim tale to be treated with respect - Opinion". Melbourne: Theage.com.au. Retrieved 19 March 2010.
^ Denying climate change isn't scepticism – it's 'motivated reasoning', Opinion column by David Robert Grimes, The Guardian, 5 February 2014.
^ AFD Diff, 7 August 2007.
^ Nazis, shoddy science, and the climate contrarian credibility gap
^ Uri, Shwed; Bearman, Peter (December 2010). "The Temporal Structure of Scientific Consensus Formation". American Sociological Review. 75 (6): 817–840. Retrieved 18 December 2010.
^ On Scientific Consensus
^ Broca's Brain, p. 64

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
August 8, 2007	Articles for deletion	Kept
March 28, 2008	Articles for deletion	Kept
September 4, 2008	Articles for deletion	Kept
March 10, 2010	Articles for deletion	Kept
March 13, 2010	Articles for deletion	Kept
January 9, 2012	Articles for deletion	Kept
November 29, 2014	WikiProject approved revision	Diff to current version
March 16, 2016	WikiProject approved revision	Diff to current version

Environment High‑importance

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Section sizes

Section size for Climate change denial (43 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	13,180	13,180
Terminology	12,740	12,740
Categories and tactics	8,161	56,776
Discussing specific aspects of climate change science	8,964	25,239
Playing up the potential non-human causes	546	546
Playing up flawed studies	2,213	2,213
Disputing IPCC reports and processes	4,935	4,935
Creating doubts about scientific publishing processes	8,581	8,581
Being "lukewarm" or "skeptical"	1,469	1,469
Pushing for adaptation only	5,857	5,857
Delaying climate change mitigation measures	9,375	9,375
Promoting conspiracy theories	6,675	6,675
Psychology	149	149
Connections to other debates	35	16,903
Links with other environmental issues	2,295	2,295
Links with nationalism and right-wing groups	6,632	6,632
Conservative views	7,941	7,941
History	12,158	31,351
Similarities with tobacco industry tactics	3,519	3,519
Republican Party in the United States	15,674	15,674
Denial networks	934	18,467
Conservative and libertarian think tanks	4,974	4,974
Publishers, websites and networks	4,473	12,559
Publications for school children	8,086	8,086
Notable people who deny climate change	46	13,746
Politicians	9,614	9,614
Scientists	4,086	4,086
Lobbying and related activities	2,494	24,030
Fossil fuel companies and other private sector actors	5,911	5,993
ExxonMobil	82	82
Attacks and threats towards scientists	3,554	3,554
Funding for deniers	11,989	11,989
Effects on public opinion	11,375	22,421
United States	8,482	8,482
Europe	2,564	2,564
Responses to denialism	1,544	23,010
The role of emotions and persuasive argument	6,177	6,177
Following people who have changed their position	8,334	8,334
Effective approaches to dialogue	4,144	4,144
Approaches with farmers	1,972	1,972
Statements of well known people calling for climate action	839	839
See also	690	690
References	349	349
Total	233,812	233,812

Use of "unwarranted" doubt in the lead[edit]

I previously reverted the use of "unwarranted" in the opening sentence, due to the fact that it seems unnecessary with the use of "pseudoscientific" as a descriptor immediately before. To avoid edit warring and per WP:BRD, I have reverted my restoration of this preferred revision, and am instead opening up discussion here to see what other editors think. Do you believe "unwarranted" belongs in the lead, or would you say it is unnecessary? I think I have stated quite clearly that I fall in the latter category, but what does everyone else think? JeffSpaceman (talk) 15:37, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Hob Gadling: and @DVdm: per discussion at User talk:Hob Gadling. JeffSpaceman (talk) 15:38, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I.m.o. the qualifier belongs in the lead, as it is backed by the content in the article body. I agree with Hob Gadlin's reasoning as expressed at User talk:Hob Gadling#"Unwarranted". Doubt is paramount to science. As CC denial flatly contradicts the scientific consensus, the doubt is inherently unwarranted. - DVdm (talk) 15:48, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is completely correct. My issue is this, though -- it seems like a somewhat unnecessary adjective, given the description of the dismissal and doubt as pseudoscientific immediately before. I'm not arguing against your point: the doubt is very much inherently unwarranted. For me this isn't a question of validity, it's a question of sufficiency -- does unwarranted really belong, when the description of it as pseudoscientific could probably get the job done on its own? JeffSpaceman (talk) 15:54, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you and think that "unwarranted" can go; also in the interest of readability, for non-native speakers. EMsmile (talk) 18:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh. This was resolved already, it was stable for three weeks, and now this [1].

Can somebody please explain how warranted doubt constitutes denial? When the data were still viewed as inconclusive, maybe in the 1960s, was that already denial, or was it normal science? --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:08, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think for the purposes of the first sentence of the lead, it is better to use a simple sentence. Whether doubts are warranted or not could be discussed later in the article. (in fact it already is). Also the first sentence actually says "doubt that contradicts the scientific consensus on climate change" which means it is per se unwarranted. This is not the doubt & discussions within the scientific community about some nuances of the processes, e.g. how much methane the thawing permafrost will release and so forth.

Also as is explained later in the article, the deniers purposefully use the word "doubt" and have spread doubt on purpose to sow confusion. So perhaps the term "doubt" is rather loaded. Thinking about it further, perhaps it's not even the ideal word to use in the first sentence at all.

Let's compare with the first sentence in the corresponding German Wikipedia article (translated here with Deepl): Climate change denial (sometimes also referred to as climate denial, climate science denial or denial of man-made global warming) is a form of science denial characterised by rejecting, refusing to acknowledge, disputing or fighting the scientific consensus of climate research on current global warming. (the term "doubt" does not appear). EMsmile (talk) 10:21, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've now changed the first sentence accordingly. This removes the need for further discussions on "doubts (warranted/unwarranted)". I've also taken out the emphasis on pseudoscience as I don't think this is key. Rather, I have linked to science denial which I think is better. Pseudoscience is still mentioned later but does not need to be in the first sentence. EMsmile (talk) 13:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

which means it is per se unwarranted Now I get it. Thanks. Also, I agree that the new version is better. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:28, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree the need version is better, but the third sentence has "Climate change denial includes doubts about the extent to which climate change is ...", which could be clearer as "unwarrented doubts". Taking on board readability for non-native speakers, I'll try "includes unreasonable doubts". . diff . . dave souza, talk 07:21, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Mann wins $1 million judgement against professional deniers - LA Times[edit]

https://news.yahoo.com/column-climate-scientist-just-won-110027843.html

The case found you can have opinions and express them, but you can't attack people with known lies and misinformation represented as facts. First Alex Jones, now this.

I post this here in hopes it might be worked into this article. For example a subsection in "Responses to denialism" called "Legal consequences of denialism". -- GreenC 14:55, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done Implemented in this edit. Other editors can move it to another section if desired. Thank you for your suggestion. —RCraig09 (talk) 17:00, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nature and Science are better sources for this, have clarified that "fraudulent" was contrary to numerous investigations that had already cleared Mann of any misconduct and supported the validity of his research.. .. 11:12, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that. But it looks like the two bullets above that needs some cleanups; they're very credulous to the denier claims. - Parejkoj (talk) 17:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, Parejkoj. Unfortunately, it would be a huge effort for Wikipedia editors to research and explain why each and every denialist claim is wrong. Fortunately, the article's lead is clear that denial is contrary to reality, and as a practical matter, we can hope readers see the false claims in context. —RCraig09 (talk) 18:00, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The context of the Seitz claim is shown at IPCC Second Assessment Report#Chapter 8: Detection of Climate Change and Attribution of Causes, and we don't need a long quote from a denier linked to a paywalled source. . .dave souza, talk 11:46, 24 February 2024 (UTC) Have linked conspiracy theories to clarify earlier sections. . .dave souza, talk 12:15, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Doubt as pseudoscientific?[edit]

I express doubt at the concept that expression of doubt is pseudoscientific. On the contrary science is all about doubt. NOT expressing doubt - unexamined dogmatic belief - is what is unsceintific. Science necessarily entails continuing attempts to falsify its own claims because of the dubious nature of inductive reasoning. Unexamined justifications "because science says so" are no better than "because God says so", if you are not prepared (or allowed) to question the scientific claims. 80.5.192.29 (talk) 13:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, you have to chuck most of Feynman's thoughts on cargo cult science, and virtually everything Popper wrote, in the bin, if you think climate science is so special that doubts and alternative rational explanations about it should be suppressed. But there we are. Burn the heretics. Oh and now we've got "attribution science". Just So stories for millenials. Greglocock (talk) 21:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you two burn your strawmen somewhere else? This page is for improving the article.

@IP: Climate change denial has been called pseudoscientific by reliable sources, and for good reasons different from the bad reason you invented.

@Greg: Burning people for disagreeing with you is a crime. If you have evidence that such a crime has happened, visit your local police station instead of Wikipedia. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:36, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[Anderegg-1] Anderegg, William R L; Prall, James W.; Harold, Jacob; Schneider, Stephen H. (2010). "Expert credibility in climate change". Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA. 107 (27): 12107–9. Bibcode:2010PNAS..10712107A. doi:10.1073/pnas.1003187107. PMC 2901439. PMID 20566872.

[DZ_EOS_2009-2] Doran, Peter T.; Zimmerman, Maggie Kendall (January 20, 2009). "Examining the Scientific Consensus on Climate Change" (PDF). EOS. 90 (3): 22–23. Bibcode:2009EOSTr..90...22D. doi:10.1029/2009EO030002.

[Christoff-3] Christoff, Peter (9 July 2007). "Climate change is another grim tale to be treated with respect - Opinion". Melbourne: Theage.com.au. Retrieved 19 March 2010.

[4] Denying climate change isn't scepticism – it's 'motivated reasoning', Opinion column by David Robert Grimes, The Guardian, 5 February 2014.

[5] AFD Diff, 7 August 2007.

[6] Nazis, shoddy science, and the climate contrarian credibility gap

[Shwed_and_Bearman_2010-7] Uri, Shwed; Bearman, Peter (December 2010). "The Temporal Structure of Scientific Consensus Formation". American Sociological Review. 75 (6): 817–840. Retrieved 18 December 2010.

[8] On Scientific Consensus

[9] Broca's Brain, p. 64

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